New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

The dual extruding Ultimaker 3!
User avatar
LePaul
Reactions:
Posts: 2871
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 10:26 pm
Location: Bangor, Maine USA
3D Printer(s): Ultimaker 2+, Folger Tech FT-5, Creality CR-10
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by LePaul » January 15th, 2017, 12:23 pm

Yes but a certain someone will try to copy and patent it. And he isn't from China :)

User avatar
ivan.akapulko
Reactions:
Posts: 377
Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:27 am
Location: Ust-Kamenogorsk, Kazakhstan
3D Printer(s): Ultimaker 2
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by ivan.akapulko » January 15th, 2017, 2:49 pm

LePaul wrote:Yes but a certain someone will try to copy and patent it. And he isn't from China :)
I am not an expert in patent law, but is legal to patent something that's already posted and shared under a Non Commercial license?

User avatar
Neotko
Reactions:
Posts: 1140
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 7:02 pm
Location: Madrid
3D Printer(s): UMO+ x2.5
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Neotko » January 15th, 2017, 2:59 pm

ivan.akapulko wrote:
LePaul wrote:Yes but a certain someone will try to copy and patent it. And he isn't from China :)
I am not an expert in patent law, but is legal to patent something that's already posted and shared under a Non Commercial license?
I don't think anyone would patent anything. It could be a Makerbot mistake ;)

Anyhow is an interesting question. For example to what point 3dsolex selling steel couplers or tfm couplers is legal since the design is based on the original um2 files? Also to what point selling an olsson is legal since is based on fitting the design on um files (I bet that at some point anders used the UM step files to fit it).

So, to what extent is ok to use open source stuff and sell stuff with it? Specially since Anders and Carl never shared their files (UM posted the olsson block step files when he did publish the um2plus bom).

Also lets not forget that china olsson clones started long before any step file was published, so is unrelated.

Anders Olsson
Reactions:
Posts: 409
Joined: February 8th, 2016, 8:37 pm
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
3D Printer(s): UM2 UM2E, UM2Go, UM3, Delta Tower, Form 1+, Form 2
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Anders Olsson » January 16th, 2017, 4:22 am

LePaul wrote:Yes but a certain someone will try to copy and patent it. And he isn't from China :)
Regarding patents, things that have been published generally can not be patent protected later on.
That is why I published pictures of the ruby nozzle, and also mentioned in a scientific article early on.

Further, you will not just get a patent approved on any random thing. There has to be some "technological depth" to the invention, or what to call it.
Relatively simple improvements to a print core are most likely not possible to protect by a patent. The ruby nozzle could have been, but not necessarily since it basically does the same thing as water cutting nozzles (=using aluminium oxide to address wear issues when pushing a liquid with abrasive particles through an orifice).
Neotko wrote: Anyhow is an interesting question. For example to what point 3dsolex selling steel couplers or tfm couplers is legal since the design is based on the original um2 files?
Carl has certainly been pushing things when it comes to Creative Commons licensing.
Initially, he simply started manufacturing E3D-nozzles according to their drawing and sold them with the block, since he found buying nozzles from E3D too expensive. I thought that was a rather risky thing to do, and I did not like the internal or external design that the E3D-nozzles had at that point anyway. So I designed the nozzles that sells with the Olsson block now days to address those issues.

When it comes to other components that Carl sells, that are basically copies of Ultimaker components, I am not sure exactly what is allowed or not.
According to someone at Ultimaker, I think, you can more or less sell anything as long as you don't use the name Ultimaker or claim that it is genuine.
Look at the Jenny Printer for example: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1939189
I would not sell things that are copies of Ultimaker-components though, since I want to put my effort on inventing or improving things rather than just copying existing components.
Neotko wrote:Also to what point selling an olsson is legal since is based on fitting the design on um files (I bet that at some point anders used the UM step files to fit it).

So, to what extent is ok to use open source stuff and sell stuff with it? Specially since Anders and Carl never shared their files (UM posted the olsson block step files when he did publish the um2plus bom).
In fact, I was not aware at the time when I designed the Olsson block that that the STEP-files were public, so I measured up and made my own drawings of all components :-)
You can see that in my picture that you posted earlier, the heat break for example is missing the chamfers that you will find in the UM-drawing:
olsson_block.png
And if you would make a section of the original UM2 block STEP-file from Ultimaker it most likely would not be identical with the one in the picture (red lines).
Neotko wrote:So, to what extent is ok to use open source stuff and sell stuff with it? Specially since Anders and Carl never shared their files (UM posted the olsson block step files when he did publish the um2plus bom).
Interesting that a STEP-file of the Olsson block has been published, I was just wondering if they did that the other day but forgot to check :-)

I don't see any problems with using the STEP-files to design additional components even if I did not do that so far, isn't that exactly the whole point with releasing the files? To lower the effort required to create accessories?
And the vast majority of Ultimaker users neither have the tools or the skills to manufacture things like an Olsson-block, so if I would upload it as a Non Commercial Share Alike I am not helping them, they would just immediately ask where they can buy it.
Uploading it that way rather than selling it actually blocks development, since no workshop will make a single block for them and since they can not make 100 blocks and sell the remaining ones then.

The drawings that Ultimaker are releasing are not very useful by the way. As it is just STEP-files they are difficult to work with if you want to modify anything, there are often details missing and the don't hold any information on tolerances for manufacturing.

So as soon as I want to modify anything, I simply make a new drawing, and I often find it easier and safer to just measure up the object in real life rather than taking for granted that the STEP-file from Ultimaker is correct.

Regarding the question about alignment in my previous post, I was thinking if I should design an alignment tool to clamp and align the components of the print core in a safe way when tightening the filament guide tube. Therefore I was curious about if you had any experiences with the alignment.

One can potentially put lots of stress on the heat break when the block has an extra fixing point if things are not aligning. I have not investigated this enough though, I was just curious about more opinions on this.

User avatar
Neotko
Reactions:
Posts: 1140
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 7:02 pm
Location: Madrid
3D Printer(s): UMO+ x2.5
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Neotko » January 16th, 2017, 4:45 am

Afaik and that's just from my zero engineering background, the core has enough freedom (a few 0.x mm to stay always put on the same position so the idle position has repetition (no need to recalibrate unless nozzle change, and sometimes not even then) and the top rest over the alu plate on the um3. A tool to hold all could be interesting but hard to use since when you open the frontal fan there's no angle to twist the nozzle with a common tool, but ofc a special tool could be interesting but again there's actually very little room to do it.

Ofc the cool solution for pro clients and resellers could be a docking station where you could actually heat a core to clean it and clamp it to swap/replace/fix a nozzle. That would require much additional hardware (something like a umo board with a e3d amplifier could be the cheapest route, or making a specific pcb with the pt100+heater chips to control the core temp for maintenance). That I think could be a great seller for shops and pro users.

Interesting about the jenny (please noone buy from that guys, their quality sucks, I bought a um2 head from them to try and the only useful part was one aluminum part).

So you actually used the hardest route to make it, cool :D

Anders Olsson
Reactions:
Posts: 409
Joined: February 8th, 2016, 8:37 pm
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
3D Printer(s): UM2 UM2E, UM2Go, UM3, Delta Tower, Form 1+, Form 2
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Anders Olsson » January 19th, 2017, 9:45 am

I was thinking of a printable alignment tool that clamps around the heat sink and aligns the heater block with the rest of the components when tightening the guide tube. Preferably in a way that one does not put stress on the heat break if the tool is slipping.

A heating station would be useful for servicing the cores, I remember discussing this with people already half a year ago.
Just changing the block on a healthy core works without heating, but as soon as there has been some more severe failure heating it outside the printer certainly would help I guess.

My only questions is: Are these print cores really going to be serviced others than by tinkers?
At first I thought so, but when thinking about it further I am not sure one can do that reliably and cheaply enough, at least not in countries with high labor costs like Sweden.

Regarding designing, making new CAD-files from the components of the UM2 hotend is not terribly difficult, I think I only spent a few hours measuring and drawing all the components.
As long at things are symmetric and have simple geometries it is easy.
I was lazy to draw the plastic frame of the print core though as it appeared to be a lot of work, impressive whoever did that with circuit board, cables and everything, I have to say! :-)

Anders Olsson
Reactions:
Posts: 409
Joined: February 8th, 2016, 8:37 pm
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
3D Printer(s): UM2 UM2E, UM2Go, UM3, Delta Tower, Form 1+, Form 2
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Anders Olsson » January 27th, 2017, 11:27 am

So here is apparently what Carl / 3DSolex has done in the meantime:
http://3dsolex.com/product/um3-hardcore-six/
I will spare you from my comments this time :-)

User avatar
Neotko
Reactions:
Posts: 1140
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 7:02 pm
Location: Madrid
3D Printer(s): UMO+ x2.5
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Neotko » January 27th, 2017, 11:34 am

Anders Olsson wrote:So here is apparently what Carl / 3DSolex has done in the meantime:
http://3dsolex.com/product/um3-hardcore-six/
I will spare you from my comments this time :-)

Please don't! Your insight and opinions are very valuable!

Ultiarjan posted a first basic print test. Basically it doesn't seem to be more than a easy mod. Anyhow shiny and red for looks.

Anyway...

User avatar
Neotko
Reactions:
Posts: 1140
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 7:02 pm
Location: Madrid
3D Printer(s): UMO+ x2.5
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Neotko » January 27th, 2017, 11:37 am

Holy foo... 210€!? Wow, someone gonna make some bling...

User avatar
LePaul
Reactions:
Posts: 2871
Joined: February 7th, 2016, 10:26 pm
Location: Bangor, Maine USA
3D Printer(s): Ultimaker 2+, Folger Tech FT-5, Creality CR-10
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by LePaul » January 27th, 2017, 12:55 pm

They guarantee them, nice...but where's the data? How are they better? What do they do differently?

Anders Olsson
Reactions:
Posts: 409
Joined: February 8th, 2016, 8:37 pm
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
3D Printer(s): UM2 UM2E, UM2Go, UM3, Delta Tower, Form 1+, Form 2
Contact:

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by Anders Olsson » January 28th, 2017, 8:35 am

Neotko wrote: Please don't! Your insight and opinions are very valuable!

Ultiarjan posted a first basic print test. Basically it doesn't seem to be more than a easy mod. Anyhow shiny and red for looks.
Well, I basically share your opinion.
It was a very good review by UltiArjan by the way, anyone who likes to read about the 3DSolex solution and did not find that review yet should read it: https://ultimaker.com/en/community/3735 ... x-hardcore

In short words, I don't see cold-swapping nozzles using two tools as an option.
As soon as you get some plastic on the sealing surface or on the threads you will either have a leak or never get the nozzle out.
So, personally I would not put a product like that on the market, there is too little value and too much that can go wrong in my mind.

However, certain expert users who want to dual-print materials that consumes nozzles or don't want to wait for Ultimaker to release other cores might find it good enough. Only time can tell I guess :-)

EDIT:
Maybe I should point out one thing more clearly:
If you get a leak with the 3DSolex design, you are likely to fill the whole print head with plastic without noticing.
Such incident will be troublesome to sort out, so I would suggest anyone trying the 3DSolex hardcore to carefully check for leaks after changing nozzle.
Last edited by Anders Olsson on January 28th, 2017, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
UltiArjan
Reactions:
Posts: 7
Joined: January 12th, 2017, 6:56 am
3D Printer(s): Ultimaker2, Ultimaker2+, GO+ (wood), Ultimaker3

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by UltiArjan » January 28th, 2017, 8:37 am


User avatar
gr5
Reactions:
Posts: 23
Joined: October 20th, 2016, 11:14 am
3D Printer(s): umo um2 um3

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by gr5 » January 28th, 2017, 11:09 am

Very cool modification neotko! I'm surprised the screw on the front of the core doesn't get hit by the internal metal piece inside the UM3 head when you swing the door closed. I didn't think there was room enough for a screw head that big.

User avatar
gr5
Reactions:
Posts: 23
Joined: October 20th, 2016, 11:14 am
3D Printer(s): umo um2 um3

Re: New heater block to fit standard nozzles on Ultimaker 3

Post by gr5 » January 28th, 2017, 11:29 am

So far I have been able to do cold swapping of nozzles on all my Olsson blocks and all my block V3 changes and all my hardcore changes. At this point I know how much force is "safe" on these (it's about the same force on all of them I think - somewhere around 4-6nM the nozzles break).

However doing a "hot" nozzle change is pretty easy with PLA (harder with high temp materials maybe?). Just heat the nozzle to 180C or even just 150C. Pop it out and remove the nozzle within 30 seconds. The downside is you then have to reboot the UM3 (I hate that).

Post Reply

Return to “Ultimaker 3 / Ultimaker 3 Extended”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests