Heated bed adhesion

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Izzy
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Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » May 9th, 2016, 10:36 am

Hi Guys,
For printing with ABS what is your recommendations for the bed, GLue stick, hairspray or, ABS gunk. If ABS gunk, how do you make yours etc.

I've been printing for 18 months with PLA but just starting to test with ABS, I've had a few prints break free :oops:
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Amedee » May 9th, 2016, 10:48 am

I don't have extensive experience with ABS, I think others know better than I do, but here is my feedback:

- ABS gunk, works, but acetone fumes are killing me...
- Hairspray is still my favorite (with the girls at home, always easy to find some leftovers)
- Not too much success with glue stick, but I believe mine is cursed (see my Nylon post)
- Given the success I had with PVA based glue with Nylon, I'll probably try that next time I do ABS
Phil.

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Izzy
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » May 9th, 2016, 2:16 pm

Hi Amedee, is that PVA wood glue or craft PVA glue, and do you water it down etc. What do you do? :geek:
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Amedee » May 9th, 2016, 2:49 pm

It is supposed to be craft PVA glue, but I used wood glue :roll:

I put a bit of glue in a bowl (about a tea spoon) and water it down (using a wet craft brush) -- you don't need a lot of water, dipping the brush once, max twice in the water is more than enough.

Then apply the glue with the brush on the cold plate, like you would apply paint on a wall: you don't want to have a thick layer, just having a small film. When it's dry you barely see it.
I don't have a picture, but when you look at this video can still see it.


To cleanup the plate, I just use warm water.
Phil.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby danilius » May 9th, 2016, 3:50 pm

I heat up the glass to around 50C and apply UHU stic, and sometimes I apply it cold when the glass is out of the machine because its easier to see where the glue has been applied, and have not really seen a difference. When the bed cools down, getting prints off is a bit tricky, so I use a blunt watchmakers case knife to lever the prints off, or if it's something delicate I run hottish water over the glass (yup, inside the printer - OK, kidding) and then the glue dissolves. When in a hurry a good thumping works just as well, but probably does the machine no good, so only use the last technique when in a hurry.

Cleanup involves warm water and a sponge.

A single coating of UHU stic (tried other brands/unbranded and they did not work well at all) can last around a week although I have used a coating for much longer than that, and every part of the glass is reusable. For prints where I'm not inclined to take a risk I clean the glass and apply a fresh coat.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby reibuehl » May 10th, 2016, 3:48 am

I still use the Staples glue stick that came with my UM2. Like @danilius, I also tend to re-use the glue layer for a number of prints and clean / apply a new coat for prints where I don't want to take a risk.
To remove the prints that do not come off by themselves when cooling down, I usually use a utility knife with the blade all the way out or a scraper. Sometimes I cool down the parts a little more by spraying on the part with a compressed air can upside down or some ice spray.
Reiner.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » May 11th, 2016, 2:53 am

Cheers guys, I've been trying to find a post for the ABS gunk but no joy so far.
I use some artist pallet knifes to remove prints, a pack only costs a few euros, but the are thin and flexable and great for freeing prints.
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » May 31st, 2016, 5:36 pm

I've been trying differs things with various results, managed to find the ' ABS Juice' it's approximatly 100ml of acetone and 12cm of 3mm filament.
I tried with some nail varnish remove acetone but apparently this ha additives in and so may not work, I will see about getting a small amount of acetone from DIY store and trying again.
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Amedee » May 31st, 2016, 6:09 pm

I'll try to re-print my fan shroud in ABS, and I'll see how it goes with the PVA glue.
The advantage of the PVA glue is that it is very easy to clean.

I accidentally printed PLA with a very thin layer of PVA glue on the plate, and I really struggled to get my print off the plate, I thought the glass would delaminate... :roll:
Phil.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby danilius » June 1st, 2016, 5:34 am

Another thing to bear in mind is that ABS warps like crazy, so bed adhesion needs to consist of more than just what's on the glass. You have to take the geometry into consideration. So, use around 10 lines in a brim, and use "mouse ears" in suitable locations that you trim off afterwards. Also, don't try printing something like a pyramid upside down, because you will have little or no adhesion from the supports. You need plenty of the model in contact with the glass. Sometimes I add some more geometry just to keep the model in place during the print and remove it afterwards.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » June 1st, 2016, 5:04 pm

Cheers Guys for the tips, I managed to get some decent acetone from the chemist, a 50ml bottle, added 6cm of white 3mm ABS and alowed to dissolve.
I agree about the adding of a good size brim, I have also used some scotch magic tape for a thin brim which helped.
I was trying to get the fans right, none for the very bottom layers but you need it for over hands and delacate bits. Will happily take advice from those more experienced in printing with ABS. :-)
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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby danilius » June 2nd, 2016, 1:48 pm

Izzy wrote:Cheers Guys for the tips, I managed to get some decent acetone from the chemist, a 50ml bottle, added 6cm of white 3mm ABS and alowed to dissolve.


If you've got some vodka handy, then you can use your quality acetone to spice it up a little. Or perhaps not.

Izzy wrote:I agree about the adding of a good size brim, I have also used some scotch magic tape for a thin brim which helped.
I was trying to get the fans right, none for the very bottom layers but you need it for over hands and delacate bits. Will happily take advice from those more experienced in printing with ABS. :-)


Cooling is hassle with ABS. You really have to check each part of your model to see whether it needs cooling or not. There is no easy way to tell. Basically, you will learn by experience just how thin you can go without cooling. Also, really thin long walls (say a u-shaped tube with 0.4mm walls, 30mm x 30mm) will warp like nothing you have seen before. Very beautiful, but utterly useless.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby VitalSparks » May 5th, 2017, 7:15 am

I have been using my UM2 on a near-daily basis since it was first released, and the machine tells me that I have clocked up over 1500 hours of printing time. I started with PLA, but soon migrated to ABS when the mechanical devices that I was building regularly failed under stress using PLA.

It was not an easy transition, particularly because of the warping characteristic of ABS which made bed-adhesion a huge problem. I tried everything to overcome this, including Kapton, PCB sheet, ABS juice, etc. but nothing really worked when printing large flat areas for things with heights over a few millimeters. I even forked out for a sheet of BuildTak, but had real trouble getting some (large, flat) models to release after printing, and finally gave up with it after some models split (delaminated) during printing, and I damaged the sheet badly removing one of my creations. I had even more trouble getting the BuildTak off the glass, which chipped in a couple of places, so I can only use one side of it now (keep meaning to buy a replacement...)

After much deliberation, I finally found the solution(s) :

    Don't use cheap ABS - Get Premium grade, which has much lower warp, and better layer adhesion. This need not be expensive - I use 'FilaPrint Premium ABS' from 3DFilaprint.com - about £20/1kg (with free postage, and next-day delivery). I believe there are other varieties of ABS that hardly warp at all, but they cost at least twice as much.

    Print at the lowest temperature quoted for the material. Even if this means a slight reduction in print speed.

    Use a decent build-plate glue. After much experimentation, I have found two products that have served me extremely well over the last couple of years. They are both water-soluble (so the base of the models, and the build-plate are easy to wash), they release the models easily after the glass is cool, they scrape off the glass easily with a razor-blade scraper, and they are not expensive.

The first is Bostik's Big Blue Stick, which goes on blue ( so you can see where it is and monitor its thickness), and dries clear. I use this for everything except the most demanding (large, flat) print.

Image

The second is a bottle of liquid glue made by Pritt. It is just called 'General Purpose Glue', and I buy it in Lidl stores when they have it. However, it is available from places on-line too if you search for it. This is the best adhesive of all, and I have successfully used it on models with a base area of over 300sqcm. I just put several drops on the glass and rub it around in a circular motion with a 4cm dia 'rubber' that I printed some time ago.

Image

As for the use of cooling fan, I rarely do. For models that could be problematic I either print several at a time, or add a 'sacrificial column' to the buildplate.

I hope this is of interest to someone struggling with ABS.

Sometime soon I will post about how I have tamed my UM2 into handling ABS perfectly, and reduced nozzle clogging, filament grinding with repeated retractions, reduced warm-up time, and various other tips including how to calibrate hot-end temperatures (essential if the hot-end sensor is replaced).

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby Izzy » May 6th, 2017, 3:49 am

Cheers Jeff,
I Use 3DFilaPrint, there own Premium PLA is great, I've not tried their ABS yet, I Filament test for them Tim & Youla are great.
Filamentum was also very nice their Nylon and Nylon with Carbon fibre (only available in 1.75mm at the moment, but tested it on the Wanhao) are really nice filaments.

I do find that some materials get better results at the lower end or below their recommended settings, and I agree the a decent slow speed can be better, I rarely print above 45mm/s.

By the way add your location to your profile, by the look of it your UK based.
Izzy.

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Re: Heated bed adhesion

Postby VitalSparks » May 6th, 2017, 10:58 am

Hi Izzy,

OK, updated my profile. Did you check out my website? (see my signature). Full bio there, together with beginnings of section on my experience with UM2, showing videos of some of the enhancements I have made. There is lots of other stuff there too, covering all sorts of other hobby topics.

Here are some of the extremes to which I have used the Premium ABS:

The first is some very small parts that I designed to make a flexible 'gooseneck' for an LED desk lamp. I printed at .15 layer height and 50mm/sec with 25% fan. Bed adhesion was with the Bostik stick. The slight yellowing is because I applied this on top of a previous layer of the Pritt glue, which I forgot to remove. After several prints, the Pritt does yellow slightly at 95deg, but it still works well.

Image

The other extreme is a folding table stay that I printed a few days ago. This, unbelievably, was printed with 0.3mm layer height, and a lightening speed of 120mm/sec. Nozzle temp was 250deg, bed temp was 95 deg, and fan was off. I used the Pritt glue here, applied on cleaned glass. Despite the large surface area, there was no sign of it lifting, and I did not use a brim. These parts have proved to be very strong, even though I used a 20% infill - but I did use a 1.6mm wall thickness just to be on the safe side.

Image

Just to satisfy curiosity, here is a screen shot of the table stay as I designed it in TinkerCad (my favourite go-to design tool). It shows an assembly of the parts to the existing table's folding legs, which I use to check the final design for any problems. Each item can then be individually exported for printing - just love this software! :-D

Image

The reason I made this thing was that the folding table (bought in Lidl store) had struts on each side that made it difficult to seat 2 people on each of the long sides. This mod has worked out extremely well, and we can now get 6 people sitting around it, and it is very stable. :-D

P.S. Yes, I realise that to be printed correctly the lower part of the hinge should be printed vertically to place the layers in the plane of the greatest stress. But this would have required a lot of support which costs a lot of material, and extends the printing time. Anyway, as I normally give parts like this a strong dose of the 'acetone vapour' treatment, I have not run into any problems yet, even though I have placed considerable horizontal stress to the table. Besides this, there are 4 of these, so if one fails I don't expect the table to collapse. If eventually I do have a failure, I have a few options - print that part again with 100% infill, use 100% infill with an 'acetone dip', and of course print vertically (as I correctly did with the tube clamp part - which didn't need supports).
Last edited by VitalSparks on May 6th, 2017, 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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